tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post3611620583596345577..comments2024-03-28T03:39:41.417-07:00Comments on Beyond the Black Gate: Diversification and the Marketing of the OSRAlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01682401446176099294noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-88593645307346964072010-03-20T14:10:17.014-07:002010-03-20T14:10:17.014-07:00I called James Mishler's City State C&C ma...I called James Mishler's City State C&C materials "a niche of a niche" on Grognardia. But the OSR itself is a niche in its own right. :)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-4722854585445975132010-03-20T05:28:19.376-07:002010-03-20T05:28:19.376-07:00"Old School" as an aesthetic and style o..."Old School" as an aesthetic and style of gaming doesn't need any help with marketing. Look at what Goodman, Paizo and WotC have recently announced. People are aware of "Old School" style RPGing and it's popular enough for the bigger companies to be putting out products.<br /><br />"OSR" as a collection of bloggers and small press publishers who either self-identify with that term, or otherwise get associated with it by others… that's something else entirely. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-23711610126509060002010-03-20T01:41:08.062-07:002010-03-20T01:41:08.062-07:00@David Macauley
I can't really add anything t...@David Macauley<br /><br />I can't really add anything to your comments to Al. I think you nailed it.<br /><br />I'd add one caveat, though. You brought up Michael Curtis's <em>The Dungeon Alphabet</em> as an exception to the sales/marketing rule. My addition here is that Curtis's book is that much more popular than other publications in part because it is system-nuetral. <br /><br />Which is why I'm inclined to disagree with your comments to Scott about not needing a Rosetta Stone. The way I see it, we've got a lot of gamers speaking the same tongue, but the dialect changes just enough from clone to clone to make translation a little iffy.<br /><br />One of the first documents I read when I discovered the OSR was Matthew Finche's "Old School Primer." I'm glad I discovered it before downloading trial copies of S&W and LL because in reading through that short, generic guide to old school gaming I was able to slough off a couple of decades' worth of accumulated RPG baggage and look at things fresh. It was immensely helpful.<br /><br />Again, the "Old School Primer" is excellent because it eschews any discussion of a specific system. <br /><br />So, while it can be argued that the OSR doesn't need a Rosetta Stone, it seems to me, and here I'm thinking about the commercial marketing of OSR-related products, that<br /><br />[1] While the OSR currently enjoys a more or less generic vocabulary, <br /><br />[2] It is that same generic vocabulary that should be used in packaging modules and campaign settings (if anyone's feeling super ambitious). <br /><br />For my money, step two would be covered by everyone including Finche's "Old School Primer" as an attachment to his module and/or setting, while every Gygax/Arneson-based rules system should include an attachment of Jason Cone's packaging of Philotomey's Musings as an example of how to "do" house rules and make the system one's own.<br /><br />In fact, hell, now that I think about it, everyone who blogs should have a visible link to generic information like this as a way to ease the uninitiated into the wonderful mess.<br /><br />Well, now I'm just free-associating and riffing, so I'd better stop commenting and start messing with my blog template.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879633126839076800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-15627643887694991942010-03-19T22:00:01.521-07:002010-03-19T22:00:01.521-07:00Have you seen my OSR's Been Kickin Ass post?
...Have you seen my <a href="http://trollandflame.blogspot.com/2010/03/osr-or-whatever-you-choose-to-call-it.html" rel="nofollow">OSR's Been Kickin Ass</a> post?<br /><br />btw GURPS is not a company and as a product, esp print product, it's suckin hard. SJG is the company and it makes it's money on Munchin.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-85319082164029060442010-03-19T20:53:37.102-07:002010-03-19T20:53:37.102-07:00@Cameron:
I absolutely agree that mass market pa...@Cameron:<br /><br /> I absolutely agree that mass market paperbacks will take the biggest hit, but I disagree with the "everything inevitably" argument - unless you're talking about a seriously long time-line. The music industry and the publishing/book-selling industry are similar in many ways but quite dissimilar in others.<br /><br />I know I'm in the minority on this one, and that you have many compelling reasons for believing the way you do - I just personally don't buy it. Only time will tell, I suppose. <br /><br />What I know for sure is that, right now, ereaders, while perfect for mass market fiction, are an incredibly lousy tool for accessing reference books of any stripe - including rpg books.nextautumnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05201978755112508204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-56037967853761396512010-03-19T20:10:05.401-07:002010-03-19T20:10:05.401-07:00@James: No problem. I wasn't clear. I just hap...@James: No problem. I wasn't clear. I just happened to be thinking of how to come to agreement without prejudices getting involved. I just figured there would need to be something codified in the sense of 'definition', not necessarily a 'standards body'... sometimes just having standard definitions of language terms can prevent misunderstandings, etc.<br /><br />@David: You're right regarding a 'Rosetta' idea... stupid oversight on my part (I didn't realize it had been explored in forums to that extent). Also, I wasn't aware that Raggi's set was 'introductory', but I'm thrilled that it is (as of the latest Working Draft). Very cool.scottszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10327316054801308727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-90019142485790729682010-03-19T19:25:55.648-07:002010-03-19T19:25:55.648-07:00Like I've been saying since I've discovere...Like I've been saying since I've discovered this whole scene for myself. D&D is D&D. fuck school and game on.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-48045700476203583452010-03-19T18:55:04.362-07:002010-03-19T18:55:04.362-07:00@Scottsz - Ah, sorry! I think the "secret vot...@Scottsz - Ah, sorry! I think the "secret voting" comment, threw me.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-25445379247050477592010-03-19T18:09:10.909-07:002010-03-19T18:09:10.909-07:00Speaking as someone who's only just arrived, I...<i>Speaking as someone who's only just arrived, I can tell you that - in appearance, anyway - the OSR could easily be described ... as "10 or 12 different reworkings of the original Gygax/Arneson rulebooks puffed up with the inclusion of a constantly growing collection of the disparate House Rules...</i><br /><br />@ Cameron – This comes down to the problem of image and marketing and is probably not easy to fix. In reality there are three main clones that cover the three different types of TSR D&D: Swords & Wizardry for 0e, Labyrinth Lord for Basic, and OSRIC for 1e – and that’s that. Anything else is just variations and house rules. Of course Dan Proctor has recently done something special with LL, publishing his <i>Original Edition Characters</i> and <i>Advanced Edition Companion</i> turning LL into a clone that covers all three types of TSR D&D, a one stop clone shop. But the bottom line is, and this too probably needs to be communicated a bit better, just as the original TSR D&D games were all easily compatible, so too are the clones, effectively making them just one game if you look at it in that way. And this is no different than the way we older types played D&D back in the “old days”, almost never by the book and usually with a liberal dose of house rules. <br /><br />How to tackle the image problem? The most effective way I can think of would be to have a website that explains it all nice and clearly and without prejudice, rather than rely on the forums to do it, since the personalities, egos and misguided loyalties that mar some forums make it a poor medium for learning and teaching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-76262949405987352782010-03-19T18:07:48.495-07:002010-03-19T18:07:48.495-07:00Is there something that can be written as a kind o...<i>Is there something that can be written as a kind of 'Rosetta Stone' for the different retro-clones? <br /><br />What about a newly written OSR introductory set? I mentioned that on another blog and it was shot down...</i><br /><br />@scottsz - The Rosetta Stone idea has been discussed before and seen as unnecessary. If anything, the clones already have one, it’s called <i>Dungeons & Dragons</i>, made available through the OGL and SRD. <br /><br />As for the introductory set idea, I’m sad to hear you copped negative responses to that. It’s a great idea and one that John Adams of BHP is tackling with the <i>S&W: White Box</i> set and James Raggi with his upcoming <i>LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing</i> game. But see my post above to understand the difficulties these men face at getting such a set out in any large numbers, let alone the problems of getting them into bricks and mortar stores – and the short version of that is such shops aren’t interested in digest sized box sets, but the costs to the publisher of producing a regular sized box set is incredibly prohibitive. <br /><br /><br /><i>The OSR is not more popular because, frankly, it's supposed audience doesn't support it. Talk to Old Schoolers and they'll go on and on about how they don't buy any supporting material for their games that have been going on 30 years with the same group of retreads. They are proud of the fact they don't know what a "retro clone" is and wouldn't use it if they did.</i><br /><br />@Badmike –Bull Crap! Who do you think is buying the stuff at the moment? Sure there is a tiny clutch of anti-change, anti-everything diehards who spew forth misery and moaning on a couple of forums, but they’re hardly representative of the OSR crowd nor typical of the OSR publisher’s customers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-55358607942601034482010-03-19T18:03:36.533-07:002010-03-19T18:03:36.533-07:00I’m amused when I read that people don’t like the ...I’m amused when I read that people don’t like the term “niche of a niche” as if it’s a negative thing, just as I am amused when people don’t like “old school” or “OSR” when they are in fact accurate descriptions. <br /><br />@Al – you talk about the “real truth of the situation” and go on to give examples of why “the OSR is booming” – and I agree with you, <i>relatively</i> speaking it IS booming. But start looking at the numbers and the real truth becomes apparent. Any OSR publisher who manages to sell 200+ units of an individual title has achieved something extraordinary, but this is a rare thing. Michael Curtis’ <i>The Dungeon Alphabet</i> is one such example, having apparently sold 500+ units (and probably much higher), but this is hardly a typical example and Michael didn’t publish this himself, as most OSR publishers/authors do, but rather a larger established company with a distribution deal not only did it for him, but organised the astounding volume of artwork in the book. In fact if an OSR publisher sells 50 units, it is still a great success. If you want to look at an example that is probably more true to the experience of many OSR publishers, just read James Mishlers post as to why he is shutting down his “company”: <a href="http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com/2010/03/adventure-games-publishing-is-closed.html" rel="nofollow">Adventure Games Publishing is Closed</a>. Have a look at the numbers he quotes. While this is perhaps an extreme example, it is also closer to the reality than <i>The Dungeon Alphabet</i> example.<br /><br />Something that wouldn’t be apparent to outsiders, and that perhaps some old school types who should know better overlook because of the stars in their eyes from this “booming” success, is that pretty much every OSR publisher is a one man show. Bursting the image of the successful “company” is perhaps not the best way to go here, but I think it’s important to know the reality of the situation in the face of criticisms as to why the OSR isn’t doing a better job marketing itself, getting stock into bricks and mortar shops, etc. These one man shows, usually with the help of a team of volunteers, have done an incredible job, as the last couple of years have shown, and are growing in slow and steady steps as Rob Conley points out. Most of these guys fund any print runs out of their own pockets with money earned from their day jobs. Go read James Raggi’s blog entries of his struggle to pay for artwork for his ventures and you’ll get a good understanding of how it is. And while we can say that the OSR is selling books by the “thousands”, total units of each individual item still averages out at just a couple of hundred customers for the market – a perspective that makes “niche of a niche” look like an apt term.<br /><br />However, being a niche of a niche is nothing to be ashamed of, rather, these guys should be lauded and praised for the incredible job they’re doing. The fact that our tiny niche of a niche – the OSR – is having such an impact outside of its own sphere of influence is an incredible and wonderful thing. Personally I think the label is a badge of pride that in no way diminishes the growing success of the OSR, especially as we grow in numbers and popularity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-71249592932573016392010-03-19T16:44:26.117-07:002010-03-19T16:44:26.117-07:00A part of me, being that I'm unemployed with p...A part of me, being that I'm unemployed with piles of free fantasy time, wishes I could find some way to get my grubby hands on some capital and start a little gaming shop focused on old school games A store for the greybeards which gives them a place to go that isn't marketing to the Poke-kids. True, the reason that the big game stores don't cater to Graybeards is because they will never make the kinda money they can make selling minis to kids, but I think that if I could dig up enough of them, and give the place a feeling of community, they'd open their hearts/wallets.Capheindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02997192956379221275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-73811904693946046212010-03-19T16:02:21.917-07:002010-03-19T16:02:21.917-07:00@James: That's not what I meant. Upon further ...@James: That's not what I meant. Upon further thought, I don't think my idea would fly anyway.<br /><br />I was thinking of something like a 'compatible with...' kind of brand/logo/thing tied to a nonprofit that operated mostly online, but could perhaps expedite sales and distribution to people who aren't internet connected.scottszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10327316054801308727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-23881855094225025822010-03-19T15:38:44.759-07:002010-03-19T15:38:44.759-07:00LL and the AEC are doing just fine, at RPGNOW. AEC...LL and the AEC are doing just fine, at RPGNOW. AEC is back up to #1<br /><br />@Scottsz - Are you seriously suggesting that a group of people take it upon themselves, to create a "Seal of Approval," and set themselves up as an authority to pass judgement upon what is or isn't "Worthy of being considered OSR material?" That would be a slap in the face to the whole idea, of this thing being in the hands of the hobbyists. I can think of no quicker way, to destroy something beautiful.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-22775707429250818392010-03-19T15:25:52.103-07:002010-03-19T15:25:52.103-07:00Nextautumn:
Oh, books aren't completely going...Nextautumn:<br /><br />Oh, books aren't completely going away. Children's picture books, the luscious art books, the snooty cookbooks that only get used in-store by lazy bastards who refuse to actually buy them - things like that will be around for a long time yet.<br /><br />Where I see ebooks really changing things is in what is currently the mass-market ppb side of this business. But, as with music and downloads, the change to digital for the majority of what we currently sell is inevitable.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879633126839076800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-4760604169870231892010-03-19T15:18:10.695-07:002010-03-19T15:18:10.695-07:00Badmike:
(In terms of where my sympathies are at,...Badmike:<br /><br />(In terms of where my sympathies are at, I prefer dead-tree. I'll be buying a White Box set in the next print run.)<br /><br />It seems to me that the S&W White Box was almost (but not quite) an example of POD. To make it work with a big box bookstore they'd have had to have a few thousand units ready to go to get them out on the floor. Are there enough buyers for that kind of committment? Can a small publisher afford to gamble and eat the returns?<br /><br /><a href="http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-books-are-sold.html" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> a look at how the commercial publishers do it and what independants are competing against: it all comes to how best brick and mortars can make the square footage pay off.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879633126839076800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-41691746518048185562010-03-19T15:11:16.405-07:002010-03-19T15:11:16.405-07:00Agree with badmike. I also work for B&N (15 ye...Agree with badmike. I also work for B&N (15 years now) and I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that there will always be a healthy demand for physical books. Ereaders are the big new thing right now and they will take a share of the market, but after the hype dies down I think it'll be clear that physical books are going to be around for a long time.nextautumnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05201978755112508204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-62513319544262181192010-03-19T14:40:55.642-07:002010-03-19T14:40:55.642-07:00RE: Cameron's thoughts. I say make it a combin...RE: Cameron's thoughts. I say make it a combination. There is still a large segment of your core OSR audience that won't have anything to do with electronic media. There's a reason the S&W White box sold out, and a reason why Raggi's box will also when it is released. However, it is impossible to ignore the fact electronic downloads are perhaps the future of this medium. Keep a finger in both pies I say.Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-23531972988503959182010-03-19T13:18:54.689-07:002010-03-19T13:18:54.689-07:00Oh, and John, don't waste time with the brick ...Oh, and John, don't waste time with the brick and mortars. I've been working in one (Barnes & noble) for the last five years and their future is in E-readers and electronic downloads. That's the basket in which they have placed their eggs. Don't waste your time messing with dead-tree publishing on that scale. Keep it to POD for interested buyers.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879633126839076800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-91921081218693492472010-03-19T13:15:10.608-07:002010-03-19T13:15:10.608-07:00Speaking as someone who's only just arrived, I...Speaking as someone who's only just arrived, I can tell you that - in appearance, anyway - the OSR could easily be described not merely as a "niche within a niche," but as "10 or 12 different reworkings of the original Gygax/Arneson rulebooks puffed up with the inclusion of a constantly growing collection of the disparate House Rules of hundreds of enthusiastic gamers, all of which combine to give the illusion of the OSR being its own solid niche within a niche when in fact the OSR enjoys the distinction of there being one different niche for every single player of the game."<br /><br />Glad to be here, though. Don't think I'm hatin' on the OSR or anything. It's my kind of place.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01879633126839076800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-63520615355321574002010-03-19T12:24:33.764-07:002010-03-19T12:24:33.764-07:00Someone should get a booth at GenCon. Come on, peo...Someone should get a booth at GenCon. Come on, people! (I have an excuse... I'm across the ocean...)JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-51184795521397811072010-03-19T10:59:39.889-07:002010-03-19T10:59:39.889-07:00I think a lot of it has to do with distribution an...I think a lot of it has to do with distribution and availability, too. The previous poster's point about old-schoolers who don't buy anything is well taken, but I think this hobby attracts at least as many obsessive collectors (me) who'll buy almost anything they think is cool. But at the big box bookstore where I work we can't even order most of the OSR stuff, let alone stock/ display it. Times are tough and I'm strapped like everyone else, but if I actually saw a lot of the OSR stuff at the bookstore or my flgs, and I could flip through it and purchase it without having to shell out exhorbitant shipping fees etc. I'd probably buy every single item right then and there. As long as the ONLY outlet for a lot of this stuff is lulu (and let's face it: there's still some consumer suspicion about the quality of pod offerings), things will continue as is. <br /><br />Love your blog, by the way.nextautumnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05201978755112508204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-59071566308887221442010-03-19T10:42:46.416-07:002010-03-19T10:42:46.416-07:00I agree with Stuart, agreeing with Christian. Not ...I agree with Stuart, agreeing with Christian. Not a fan of Amway, but you have to admit that it works. <br /><br />"Simulacra" sounds like a dietary supplement for seniors or some sort of Viagra-like medication.Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01786312855250456688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-86352616538454246982010-03-19T10:36:09.202-07:002010-03-19T10:36:09.202-07:00I agree 100% with Christian. OSR, Retroclone, Simu...I agree 100% with Christian. OSR, Retroclone, Simulacra... blah.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3094937232522894470.post-37277664775956333532010-03-19T10:20:54.097-07:002010-03-19T10:20:54.097-07:00@Badmike, Free RPG also requires to be able to ord...@Badmike, Free RPG also requires to be able to order print runs like a regular publisher which is out of reach for many at this point.<br /><br />I see it happening but no sooner than either next year or the year after.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.com